Me, Me....I'm in the wine country, "north bay," on the 101...
Shoshana
La Capra
JoinedPosts by La Capra
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18
Anyone in Northern California?
by TweetieBird injust wondering if there is anyone from northern california.
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27
Unwritten prophecies of JWs,
by Brummie in...that helped the wt to recover after 1975 failure.
all of us could document the written false prophecies of the wtower, 1799, 1874, 1914 -15-18-19-1935-75.by 2000....etc but how about the unwritten ones?
can you document any?.
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La Capra
Avi
Then there was the 1986 year of peace and security, in 1985 this was made a big issue at the "integrity keepers" convention, we were really expecting the outbreak of sudden destruction even though it wasnt written down
I remember that BS.Me too. It was sitting at the convention in 1987, after 1986 had passed, free and clear of armaggedon, that I allowed myself the freedom to imagine life without all this BS. I DAed the following October. Shoshana (of the take a few months to get my ducks in a row class)
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Are JWs "Approval Whores"?
by Scully induring a quiet moment at work the other night, i picked up a back issue of o magazine, one of the current quintessentially authoritative journalistic voices of the modern north american woman.
it was the december 2003 issue, and i was intrigued by the title of the article: "the halo effect" which promised to examine the condition of 'being too good' for one's own good.
the preamble contained the phrase "self-sacrificing" and i was immediately zapped by that standard jw buzz-word and the article's suggestion that being "self-sacrificing" is not all it's cracked up to be.. you can read the article here: stop seeking approval.
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La Capra
Maybe you can help me about the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If there isn't a new system, then what does that mean? I have so many doubts about the society but that one still stumps me.
When I left (at age 19), I left fully imprinted with black and white thinking. Any situation could be viewed only one way: all right or all wrong (JW mentality). Falling into this mindset is the most common way I regress. But deep down, I know that this mindset is ALL WRONG (tee hee...)
This part of the prayer does not have to mean that all the Earth is doing God's will, or that God intends his will to be demonstrated in the same identical way in everyone.
One single person doing God's will is the fulfillment of this prayer. Which means this prayer is answered billions of times a day, whenever anyone says a little prayer or blessing, does something kind, stands up for injustice, gives a handful of change to a homeless person, comforts a crying child, appreciates the beauty of nature, you catch my drift? You can view this part of the prayer as God's assignment to you to do holy things right now, here on Earth (just like they do heaven...)
When Jesus "gave" this prayer, he was not giving any new prayer. This was the way the Jews prayed for ages. He is outlining the structure: Honor God, honor God's presence, ask for stuff (food, healing, blessings, a new car), ask for redemption and forgiveness, ask to be protected, It wasn't the be all end all prayer of promise of a new system.
(As an aside-I try to remember if the prayers at meetings and assemblies followed a similar structure, and I can't-but I think they sorta did. I do remember, though is that we were told to constantly pray, but were never really taught how to have a personal prayer practice....)
Wifey-I encourage you to begin enjoying the shades of grey as you journey beyond the WTBTS. It is a never ending reminder of the freedom thought you now have.
Take care, Shoshana
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People to People Student Ambassador Programs -- heard of it?
by cruzanheart inour daughter jennie got an invitation to take part in a people to people student ambassador program, and we're kind of curious as to what this is and how much it might cost (their website shyly avoids talking about money).
have any of you lovely people out there heard of this program?
is it legit?.
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La Capra
This one costs at least $5000 for a two to three week adventure, that involves a lot of homestays (that's the ambassador part). A whole group travels together. They go in the summer, and it doesn't look like they enroll in school, but participate in the culture in other ways. $5000 (not including spending money) seems steep to me when the lodging and food (thanks to the hosts) don't cost the program a dime, but the administration of it, along with the teachers for the program that travel with the kids, need to be paid and paid for. It gets good reviews, but it is expensive. The teen tours that are cheaper are known for their partying and allowing the kids to run wild in foreign lands, they have much less supervision. This program was established (in name at least) by Eisenhower. It is probably safe, and not a scam. My thoughts on exchanges, though, is that when you travel in a pack with other American kids, you tend not to mix it up with the local family you are staying with too much. Again, there are other exchange programs that are much more into the exchange of culture, not jet-setting. Shoshana
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People to People Student Ambassador Programs -- heard of it?
by cruzanheart inour daughter jennie got an invitation to take part in a people to people student ambassador program, and we're kind of curious as to what this is and how much it might cost (their website shyly avoids talking about money).
have any of you lovely people out there heard of this program?
is it legit?.
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La Capra
One of my former students JUST walked in with a recommendation from People to People to fill out. I will be investigating this a lot before I recommend her. There are so many "exchange programs" that are such a scam (collect lots of money from the parents, then send the kids off to foreign countries where they don't have host families lined up....put 'em in a school that gets "stuck" with them ... etc.) I still would go with the tried and true programs: AFS and Youth for Understanding. Shoshana
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New Case: good for WBTS
by La Capra inin reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, i came across this case: doe v. corp. of president of church of jesus christ of latter day saints: 2004 wl 1846365 utah app.,2004.
aug. 19, 2004. the church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.
"church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity.".
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La Capra
Well, it means only one of these two things
1) Utah does not intend to protect the shenanigans of the clergy, hiding behind the shield that there was no duty owed by the Church, to protect its adherents from predators....We won't make the same mistake the Catholics made. The Catholics are losing everything.
or
2) Let's settle this once and for all, we protect the powerhouse of this state to the end, we were appointed by legislators that belong to this church, who are elected by members of this church. Let's send a message to anyone who would dare try to discredit the Church that they have no recourse in us.
I actually think it might be number one, because if it were number two, they simply would have not granted cert. However, it would have headed to the DC Supremes anyway.
Monday morning legal predictions...free of charge, this early in the morning.
Shoshana
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JW foul play.
by avishai inwhat instances do you know of jw crime, particularly jw on jw or jw on xjw?.
i know of several instances.
my own po, elder grandfather ripped off tons of dubs.
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La Capra
My Dad, a nonJW used to allude to some illegal and unethical dealings that some of the JW men pulled on each other and nonJWs. But my father is a good guy, he would never name names or give details, because it would embarrass the people who got scammed. Even when I was trying to believe in whole religion, I knew my dad was being truthful when he referred to it.
When I was really little, the JW father of my mom's friend set a church on fire. But I think he was just crazy and delusional.
Shoshana
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So 'love' is the identifying mark of 'true' christians? Well then..........
by BLISSISIGNORANCE in........................dubs are not true christians.
they use that point to prove they are and it's that very point that proves they are not!.
i was doing a bit of house work this morning when the phone rang.
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La Capra
The lack of love was my primary reason for leaving in 1987. And since I knew the doctrine was a total crock, staying in for the "moral support" was a losing proposition. If I was going to spit out a bunch of ridiculous drivel, I figured I might as well enjoy it. But I was lucky. When I left, my mom amd her step-sister were the only other baptized JWs in our immediate family, so I wasn't giving up familial love (my mom didn't know what that meant back then anyway).
Shoshana
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WTBTS goes for the big so what.
by La Capra inon september 15, the church will make its motion for a dismissal-basically admitting all the allegations of the four plaintiffs, but alleging that even if they were all true, they did not do anything that would entitle the plaintiffs to any kind of relief.
what i think is "of note" and which distinguishes this from other cases is that glew babysat kids "in an official position" while their parents went out in service.
my mom left me with "witness" sitters a few times while she did the auxiliary thing.
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La Capra
On September 15, the church will make its motion for a dismissal-basically admitting all the allegations of the four plaintiffs, but alleging that even if they were all true, they did not do anything that would entitle the plaintiffs to any kind of relief. What I think is "of note" and which distinguishes this from other cases is that Glew babysat kids "in an official position" while their parents went out in service. My mom left me with "witness" sitters a few times while she did the auxiliary thing. It could have been me.
I don't know about my linking skills, but if necessary one of those adorable mod types can fix the link, or y'all can cut and paste.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/pmextra/#link3
I am going to determine what time the hearing is scheduled, and will go if I don't have to abandon my students to do it. I am curious to hear these arguments, and it is going to be happening in a building I already frequent.
First day of school today...off to change the world, one linear equation at a time....
Shoshana
Edited to add "hey the link linked!"
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New Case: good for WBTS
by La Capra inin reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, i came across this case: doe v. corp. of president of church of jesus christ of latter day saints: 2004 wl 1846365 utah app.,2004.
aug. 19, 2004. the church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.
"church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity.".
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La Capra
In reviewing the "new news" out of the courts this morning, I came across this case: Doe v. Corp. of President of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: 2004 WL 1846365 Utah App.,2004. Aug. 19, 2004. The church won, the basic premise was that the church owed no duty to the children to warn of a "high priest's" past sexual abuse activities.
"Church did not have special relationship with church "high priest" giving rise to duty to warn of his alleged sexual abuse; "high priest" was not church agent, employee, or member of clergy, and abuse did not occur on church property or during church-sponsored activity."
"Church did not have special relationship with victims of alleged sexual abuse giving rise to duty to warn; victims were not in church's custody."Here is the background:
For many years, Jane and her son John were members of the Church and regularly attended a ward in the Salt Lake Holladay Stake. George Tilson was also a member of the Church, and held the positions of "High Priest" and scout leader within the Church. Beginning in 1966 and continuing through 2002, COP [Corporation of the President; ie. "Church"] received several complaints from its members that Tilson was sexually abusing children within his ward.However, COP not only failed to do anything in response to these complaints, it actively concealed Tilson's sexual abuse from its members and secular authorities. Moreover, COP allowed Tilson to continue to hold the positions of High Priest and scout leader. Two of Tilson's victims during the time period that he was alleged to have engaged in child sexual abuse were Jane and John. In the summer of 1976, Tilson enticed Jane, who was then thirteen years old, into his home where he fondled her under her clothing. Tilson sexually abused John, Jane's son, some time between 1993 and 1996 when John was approximately five years old. John's abuse also occurred in Tilson's home after Tilson lured him away from a neighbor's yard where he was playing. In the fall of 2001, Jane learned of news reports that led her to believe that COP had prior knowledge of Tilson's propensities to sexually abuse children. Jane's subsequent investigation of these reports ultimately prompted her to file a complaint in June of 2002 against Tilson, alleging that he had sexually abused Jane and John, and against COP, alleging negligence, breach of fiduciary duty, and intentional infliction of emotional distress arising out of Tilson's alleged sexual abuse.
Some of the analysis:"Plaintiffs have not alleged any facts demonstrating that COP had custody and control over Tilson at the time he sexually abused Plaintiffs. For example, Plaintiffs do not allege that Tilson was a COP agent or employee, or that he was a member of COP's clergy. Nor do they allege that the abuse occurred on COP property, during a COP sponsored activity, or in connection with Tilson's position as a High Priest or scout leader. Although Plaintiffs do allege that "COP had the power to remove Tilson as a High Priest, and even had the power to excommunicate him from the church," these facts alone are insufficient to establish that COP had custody and control over Tilson. Therefore, we conclude that no special relationship existed between COP and Tilson at the time Plaintiffs were sexually abused that would give rise to a duty on COP's part to warn Plaintiffs about Tilson."
The very fact that the church provided faith based adivce to the children (and their parents/guardians) did not create the duty to warn/protect. Without establishing there was a duty to warn its parishioners, congregants, etc., the plaintiff would not be able to make the prima facie case for negligence. This case was dismissed in "summary judgment" (meaning the plaintiff's failed to make any sort of claim that would grant them relief in a court of law.) This was not a Supreme Court case, so it may not be finished yet.
But, basically, what the court says, is, even though the Church may have had a disciplinary system in place to "excommunicate" the priest in order to protect other chruch memebers, the church could not control the priest's conduct when he was not in their custody (and the victims were not). Because it was outside the Church's realm or control, the church had no duty to warn and protect.
Keep in mind that ths case is out of Utah, and that this case was decided in favor of the Mormon Chruch. It would not be out of the realm of possibility that there is a bias for the church in the Utah Courts. In my pitiful legal experience, I would bet that this one isn't finished yet. I think there is a duty here (particularly if the high priest was "using" his title to gain trust with his victims and the Church knew it...).
However, this case is absolutely on point with what occurs in many of the WTBS cases of abuse. (Church member/leader, ability to excommunitcate, ability to warn, not happening on chruch property, or during church activity...) So, if it moves past the Utah courts in appeals, then it will set the precedent for the WTBTS cases.
And finally, another obvious example that WTBTS is just like the other churches...
Shoshana